This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Simone de Beauvoir article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Wikipedia. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Wikipedia.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women writers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women writers on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women writersWikipedia:WikiProject Women writersTemplate:WikiProject Women writersWomen writers
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women
From current article: "The Second Sex, first published in 1949 in French as Le Deuxième Sexe, turns the existentialist mantra that existence precedes essence into a feminist one: "One is not born but becomes a woman" (French: "On ne naît pas femme, on le devient"). With this famous phrase, Beauvoir first articulated what has come to be known as the sex-gender distinction, that is, the distinction between biological sex and the social and historical construction of gender and its attendant stereotypes."
It doesn't seem to me that this quote is endorsing the perspective that sex is one thing, and gender another (after all, she did not write "One is born a female, but one becomes a woman"). The SEP citation offered doesn't directly support that reading either. It's also worth noting that Butler uses this quote to introduce their perspective that there is no difference between sex and gender in Gender Trouble. So, I think the claim about the sex-gender distinction should be omitted or clarified. 2607:4A80:155:114:F4F7:6AD:8937:8F50 (talk) 14:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the relevant passage from the citation.
"To counter this kind of biological determinism, feminists have argued that behavioural and psychological differences have social, rather than biological, causes. For instance, Simone de Beauvoir famously claimed that one is not born, but rather becomes a woman, and that “social discrimination produces in women moral and intellectual effects so profound that they appear to be caused by nature” (Beauvoir 1972 [original 1949], 18; for more, see the entry on Simone de Beauvoir). Commonly observed behavioural traits associated with women and men, then, are not caused by anatomy or chromosomes. Rather, they are culturally learned or acquired."
I would say the argument in the Beauvoir article is reasonably supported by the source within context but would concur that additional sources (for or against) are welcome. And I appreciate the reminder I need to get around to reading Gender Trouble. Simonm223 (talk) 14:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The infobox currently states that de Beauvoir was involved with the philosophical school of Western Marxism. The article is also included in three categories relating to Marxism. Despite this, a simple scan of the article body shows that the ONLY mention of anything relating to such topics is a statement that in the 70s, she stopped believing in a socialist revolution being sufficient to achieve women's liberation. So yes, that would mean the article implies her being a socialist. But that still wouldn't imply she was a Marxist, since she could've reasonably been some non-Marxist kind of socialist. And even if we had a source claiming she was a lifelong Marxist, this still wouldn't mean her belief in Marxism had any effect on her career in philosophy, so the infobox statement would still be unsourced.
Last one, here's an WP:ABOUTSELF statement where she talks about her support for revolution, her criticism that it is, alone insufficient for women's liberation, and a self-description as far-left. It's on YouTube titled 'Simone de Beauvoir "Why I'm a Feminist" - unfortunately I cannot link to youtube. Look around 18:30. I'm sorry if I seem a pest here but Beauvoir is one of my favorite philosophers and it's a significant enough frustration for me how pop culture tries to divorce her feminism from Marxism that I've literally written essays about it. Simonm223 (talk) 18:15, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
^Yes, I am aware that marxists.org lists her works. No, the anonymous maintainers of marxists.org are not a reliable source. If we consider their editorial choice to include Simon as evidence for her being a Marxist, we might as well stop worrying about sourcing altogether, since by that point Wikipedia itself would be considered a reliable source.
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
.jpg){kind=small}
